Why does anyone put up with this?
How did you spend your Labor Day weekend? I’ve spent mine attempting to clean all of the crap off of Ruby’s new Thinkpad. I’ve failed. I give up.
She’s had the computer for about two weeks. She’s a reasonably good computer user, in that she doesn’t download random junk, she doesn’t use peer to peer software, and so on. But she isn’t an expert. She’s not going to spend time reading tech news sites to keep track of the latest worms or anything like that.
Nor should she have to. You shouldn’t have to spend time dealing with your computer. The computer only exists to help you get things done, and when that balance changes something’s very, very wrong.
This is a brand new computer. It shipped too early for XP SP 2, but everything else was up to date. Despite that, in the first two weeks it managed to get infected with at least two viruses and about a dozen spyware programs. This is just from using Word and IE…I doubt she launched any other application the entire week. They messed up so many things that the system would no longer stay on the Internet for more than a minute or two before the connection would die. SBC’s DSL support called it a hardware problem, so she was going to call IBM on Tuesday to get it sent back in for repairs. Now we know it’s nothing of the sort.
I’ve run Ad-Aware and Spybot. I’ve run both in Safe Mode, in a standard startup, and while not connected to the Internet. They clean more and more things, but the lists change, and they disagree. Meanwhile, the computer continues to display some random popup ad on startup. I know what application is causing it — something that’s sometimes called mteo.exe that spawns off randomly-named executables that do the dirty work — but Windows’ “find file” tool denies that it exists. I’ve tried to go hunting around on the command line and find it, but I’ve failed. It doesn’t turn up in the standard places, and ‘dir’ seems to be too stupid to search for hidden files unless you specify them by name. (And I’ve already done that for a whole bunch of things in C:\Windows\System32 — spyware files that installed themselves as hidden system files.)
Why does anyone put up with this? I’ve wasted a whole weekend trying to get this computer back into a usable state. I don’t understand why this isn’t Microsoft’s problem to fix. I’ve had to track down a variety of loosely-documented and not-necessarily-reputable third party tools, starting with Ad-Aware and Spybot — each of which only sometimes works, has an awful UI, and is slow — and there’s simply no single trustworthy source out there with all the information I’d need to fix this. Nobody else could do that job as well as Microsoft, but they don’t seem to be interested in providing a complete solution. I can’t even begin to imagine how anyone who isn’t a programmer manages to keep a Windows system secure. And this is on a computer that now has XP SP 2 installed.
I’ve had it. I told Ruby to buy a Thinkpad rather than a PowerBook because she can’t take her exams on a Mac. Screw it. Until the spyware epidemic is fixed, I’ll never recommend Windows again. Yes, I work for a competitor, but my friends and relatives can tell you that I’ve always recommended Windows to people who need it. No longer. This just isn’t worth it. In Ruby’s case, she can return the Thinkpad and get a computer that will actually get out of her way, and I’ll buy her a used PC laptop just for exams if I have to. Anything to keep from ever again having to waste multiple days of my life just trying to clean a computer.
DeLynn Berry Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 8:53 am
I’ve been in the same boat on numerious occasions with my family and friends, so I can relate to your frustration. I don’t know if this Thinkpad has aggrivated you beyond return, but if you would like to try to remedy the situation again, I have a couple of recommendations for you.
For the Spyware problem, I highly recommend Bazooka–http://www.kephyr.com/spywarescanner/. This application is very light weight and free. This application scans your computer, then tell you what is on the machine and provides instructions for how to remove it (via his website). I have used and recommeded this piece of software and have never heard anything bad said about the application.
As for virus software, I haven’t used Norton or Symantec in almost 3 years. I found Eset Software’s NOD32–http://www.nod32.com/home/home.htm to, again, be very light weight, while also being extreemly fast, efficient and effective. They have a great reputation of not missing an “in the wild” virus for over six years.
Good luck with whatever you decide, but I figured I could give your (or maybe others) some hope on getting a handle on this problem.
Chris Beach Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 11:12 am
Your comments are perfectly timed to try to undermine consumer confidence in SP2. SP2 is a huge update for Windows and IE, costing almost $1bn and a year of development and testing by Microsoft.
SP2 is the biggest threat MS’s competition have had for a long time. It removes the most important selling points for browsers like Firefox, and also strengthens Windows against OS X. You may be interested to read this if you think Windows is less secure than OS X:
http://www.techworld.com/security/news/index.cfm?newsid=1798
Sensationalist and annecdotal articles like yours seek to damage the reputation of SP2 before you’ve even seen what it can do. I’m disappointed.
Eric Albert Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 11:36 am
I’m not trying to criticize SP2 or anything like that. (At least not in this entry.
It didn’t fix the problem here. That’s not necessarily a sign that it’s flawed. I’d certainly recommend that everyone install it, much as I’d recommend that everyone install every security update from Microsoft.
And of course this is anecdotal. What’s a weblog for, after all?
That Techworld article is silly, but I’m not going to expound on that here.
Jordan Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 11:40 am
I can only assume that the above comment is from Microsoft’s marketing department, because it’s complete bunk. SP2 is no more impressive that any other incremental patch, and certainly no more impressive than any OS X point release. Anyway, the chief reason why you don’t see virii and spyware on the Mac is the same reason you don’t see muggers and pickpockets in the middle of the Sahara. Why bother? There are many times as many Windows users as any other platform. Spyware is just as easy to write for the Mac, but why do it if you’ll only infect one tenth or one thirtieth as many people?
OS X is not an inherently more spyware- or virus-proof platform; it has the exact same serious flaw as every other consumer-targetted system: users.
Jordan Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 11:43 am
P.S. My above post is neither a defense of XP or a condemnation of OS X, nor is it meant as a compelling reason for non-savvy users to stick with XP. Just trying to inject some realism into the situation.
Anonymous Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 12:19 pm
If she has to use Windows for her class, then I guess it’s best to use the restoration disks that came with the thinkpad and start over. In addition to the stuff you mentioned like ad-aware, I recommend installing ZoneAlarm. Her school should also provide a free anti-virus program, too. And show her how to use Mozilla for browsing and email instead of IE/Outlook.
And I agree, the comment by Chris Beach is complete bunk.
sfb Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 12:43 pm
“Nor should she have to. You shouldn’t have to spend time dealing with your computer. The computer only exists to help you get things done, and when that balance changes something’s very, very wrong.”
What about servicing a car, checking the tyre pressure, brakes, MOT, tax disc, etc.
What about servicing printers and changing toner and ink?
What about polishing shoes, changing light-bulbs in decorations, replacing guttering and painting rooms and replacing batteries?
Things need maintenance and understanding to keep working properly – moreso with more complicated things, and little of daily use is more complicated than a PC. It might be the case that you can ignore the CPU, memory, disk, networking protocols, display hardware and so on, but you just can’t ignore everything, or things turn out badly.
Part of that, for good or bad, is not connecting your PC to the internet without a firewall – not just Windows, but that is particularly prone to quick compromise because it is so widespread.
“and ‘dir’ seems to be too stupid to search for hidden files unless you specify them by name”
They are hidden, so it hides them.
dir /ah will list files with the hidden attribute.
“Why does anyone put up with this?”
I don’t want to sound like one of those lobbying Linux users saying everyone should compile their kernels and use the console, for I don’t think computing should be like that, but I do accept that there are things you have to do like run a firewall to stop Windows falling over. And I think Windows is nicer than the other OSs I have tried.
“It didn’t fix the problem here.”
I bet it did. Fix the problems – exploits in Windows and IE.
What it didn’t – can’t – undo is whatever malicious software having full administrative access to your computer has done.
It’s a bit of a shame, for Windows can turn out to be quite pleasant at times.
Chris Beach Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 12:49 pm
“And I agree, the comment by Chris Beach is complete bunk”
That’s it guys, have a group hug and continue your work promoting a beta-testing browser with unfixed 5-year-old security holes to schoolchildren. After all, noone’s legally liable if Firefox goes pear, right?
Marc Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 2:28 pm
Once you’re 0wn3d, you’re 0wnd3d. While I could theoretically clean up said laptop given enough time it would be far faster to do just rebuild the system. Installing sp2 will help prevent the system from getting crap on it but it can’t clean it up once it’s already there.
It’s not that hard to keep a Windows machine in working order. The firewall plus automatic updates will protect against network based attacks and a decent AV program will protect you from the e-mail viruses. On the web browsing side the IE UI changes for SP2 make it harder to accidentaly install spyware. For a novice user though it might not be a bad idea to disable the installation of new ActiveX controls to remove temptation.
Eric – if you want to rebuild the laptop with sp2 I can hook you up with the slipstream image which install sp2 with windows xp.
+++ATH0 Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 7:09 pm
Failures in Usefulness
It sounds like Eric over at OutOfCheese is having the modern operating system blues. While he’s already received a few commentaries on how “right” or “wrong” his opinion is, I don’t believe the root causes of the problem have…
Jim Said,
September 6, 2004 @ 7:23 pm
Check out Chris Beach’s weblog and comments on the ieblog for a good idea of his leanings. He criticised Mozilla for implementing “proprietary” CSS properties like the CSS 3 opacity property, and thinks that it’s wonderful how Microsoft does the same thing with DirectX CSS filters. I wouldn’t pay too much attention to his whining.
Gyrus Said,
September 7, 2004 @ 4:57 am
I’m probably what you’d call a techie, but I’ve had maybe one or two very minor cases of virus/spyware infection. I use WinXP Pro (not installed SP2 yet), and I’m online most of the day on most days, broadband for the past few years. I’ve not done anything to protect my machine that’s in any way beyond your average competent user. I use eTrust ez-Antivirus (auto-updates), and run Ad-Aware every now and then. I do use Firefox now, but I never had real problems with IE6.
Am I just… lucky?!
steven vore Said,
September 7, 2004 @ 6:46 am
I’m a geek too, and my XP(now SP2) laptop’s reasonably free of gunk. My home desktop system, which resides behind a firewall and which I *do* keep up-to-date (MS updates, Anti-Virus updates, the works) keeps getting infected.
The main difference? The rest of the family uses the desktop. I agree, a normal family or corporate computer-use might be expected to keep their patches etc. up-to-date (and their oil changed, tires rotated, etc). That should be enough, but even when that’s done it’s not.
That’s broken.
Marc Said,
September 7, 2004 @ 2:24 pm
Keeping patches up to date is the easy part. Once automatic updates are on you don’t need to worry about it much any more. The hard part is preventing users from installing software that they really shouldn’t on their computers. Keeping the car analogy going most people wouldn’t let a random guy on the street corner install random stuff in there car. Yet when it comes to computers many people will agree to installing random software without having any idea what it really does.
How do you design a browswer such that it is easy to go to http://www.apple.com/trailers and install quicktime while being difficult to get random claria junk on your computer. As part of XP SP2 the corporate decision was to make it harder to install all plugins. This will make it harder to get malware on your pc but it still won’t stop it. I’m not sure what can be done to stop this while there is no financial or legal downside to writing malware.
Anonymous Said,
September 10, 2004 @ 7:03 am
“…I’ve always recommended Windows to people who need it.”
I think the take-home message is: recommend the OS that you’re willing to support. (cf. Matt Evan’s account for another perspective on this: http://blogs.msdn.com/mattev/archive/2004/06/21/161770.aspx )
PS–my girlfriend (now my wife) was content using either, but was quite happy to get an ibook when she realized that I wouldn’t grumble and mutter as much…
Steve Bryan Said,
September 18, 2004 @ 9:59 am
Don’t you love it when flacks like Chris Beach loudly proclaim that the reality you experience just doesn’t count? Their cassandra proclamations about OS X stretch out for months and then years about how everything will be no better than XP.
I have a rather humble OS X machine (450 MHz G4) side by side on the same large desk as a higher powered box (Athlon 2400+) running XP. I don’t get the biblical plague infestations on XP that others describe but it does have the occassional problem and is definitely less stable. They are both behind the same simple NAT (do all these other people actually have something that is more accurately described as a firewall?) along with a Vonage box, Xbox, and PS2. In other words my opinion is based on experience rather than other possible factors.
If you enjoy or at least don’t mind computer maintenance activities (yes, I do know such people), want more performance per dollar (specifically gaming), and don’t mind a less elegant computer experience, then Windows is the right choice. But don’t try to leave out the maintenance component or you are just deluding yourself. It is there based on experience and people who claim otherwise are probably being paid in one way or another to promote that position.
Jason Young Said,
October 28, 2004 @ 11:49 am
I’m finally catching up on age old posts in NetNewsWire – and you expressed this better than I’ve seen to date. Ditto.